Post by Afterpaw on Jun 18, 2013 18:36:33 GMT -6
Earlier today, one of my friends posted a status which sort of angered me, because it ignored a lot of things that I don't think should be ignored. Here it is:
So that sounds all good and feminist, as you do. But I replied with this, attempting to give my own counterargument(s) and respectfully refute certain things she ignored. Here we go:
Me, I debate on principle, all the time, no matter what. And when I give a reasonable set of facts, and they respond with what they did, I'm not all too happy. This is what a person replied with:
For those of you who couldn't gather it, misandry is the rough opposite to misogyny. Misogyny is hatred towards women, misandry is hatred towards men.
So you can see why I'm angry. People such as feminists, who claim to want gender equality, should not repel all opposing views simply because it's not what they want to hear. Denying me the right to the term "misandry" is precisely the sort of bullcrap that feminists want to end; which is to say, gender inequality. Frankly, it was a waste of my time and extensive brainpower to attempt to debate with a so-called feminist. Here's the reality, little kids, "feminism" isn't akin to "gender equality" nowadays. To be a feminist is apparently to be a man-hating, irrational, irrelevant arse. So if you want gender equality and you ARE willing to hear opposing views and debate civilly, points to you, you're actually a person. If you're a narrow-minded "gender equalist," you can leave now.
So...that's really all I have to say on the matter. Be angry about it. Bye.
~ Jordan
Get ready, yo, because I don't come on facebook a lot but I'm really angry so prepare yourselves.
There seems to be some kind of misconception that men's rights activism is the male parallel to feminism, which is just ridiculous. Men's rights activism is selfish, petulant hatred directed towards women because they dare to call men out on their bull. Men's rights activism is classified as a hate group. You know, like the KKK and Neo-Nazis. They commit acts of terror and I mean they literally blow things up because their man-feelings are hurt by a woman daring to stand up to years of internalized hatred beaten into her by a society that views women as inferior. Feminism is a movement entirely based in the universal desire for equality.
Other misconceptions include:
-Feminists cause all the problems men have.
Most men's problems (not being awarded custody of their children, feeling ashamed or being bullied for showing emotions, feeling too ashamed to report rape or abuse) arise from society's tendency to put people in boxes. It is not the fault of feminists that everybody (mostly men!!!) thinks that men don't show emotions or can't be abused or can't be homemakers.
-Feminists hate men.
Feminism is devoted to breaking down the aforementioned stereotypes, among other things, therefore dissolving the walls that separate the genders and solving all of those problems I just mentioned.
-Generalizing men is just as bad as misogyny.
Alright here's the deal: I don't care if a woman says "I hate all men they are all mean evil rapists who hate women!" it is still not nearly as harmful as you reinforcing stereotypes that lead to women getting harassed and paid less then you and not taken seriously in their fields of work and all that junk. If I hurt your man feelings I'm not even going to apologize because you probably deserve it.
-The genders are already equal.
This is getting a bit redundant, BUT! Some statistics for you: Women get paid 77 cents to a man's dollar. Man-led business projects get twice as much funding as parallel projects run by women and man-led committees are twice as large as woman-led ones. Men are almost twice as likely as women to get a promotion within a year of a development project. Men are twice as likely as equally qualified women to be sent on international business trips. That's enough of that.
-This isn't an issue of racial/religious rights.
You know that wage gap I mentioned earlier? In 2010, white women made 80.5 cents to a white man's dollar, black women made 69.6 cents to a white man's dollar, and Hispanic women made 59.8 cents to a white man's dollar. There, it's a race issue. A woman wearing a muslim head covering is "oppressed" while nuns are heralded for their commitment to their religion. It's a religious issue! It is also hugely related to LGBTQ* rights but I'mma get real pissed if I get into that, so that's a rant for another day.
There seems to be some kind of misconception that men's rights activism is the male parallel to feminism, which is just ridiculous. Men's rights activism is selfish, petulant hatred directed towards women because they dare to call men out on their bull. Men's rights activism is classified as a hate group. You know, like the KKK and Neo-Nazis. They commit acts of terror and I mean they literally blow things up because their man-feelings are hurt by a woman daring to stand up to years of internalized hatred beaten into her by a society that views women as inferior. Feminism is a movement entirely based in the universal desire for equality.
Other misconceptions include:
-Feminists cause all the problems men have.
Most men's problems (not being awarded custody of their children, feeling ashamed or being bullied for showing emotions, feeling too ashamed to report rape or abuse) arise from society's tendency to put people in boxes. It is not the fault of feminists that everybody (mostly men!!!) thinks that men don't show emotions or can't be abused or can't be homemakers.
-Feminists hate men.
Feminism is devoted to breaking down the aforementioned stereotypes, among other things, therefore dissolving the walls that separate the genders and solving all of those problems I just mentioned.
-Generalizing men is just as bad as misogyny.
Alright here's the deal: I don't care if a woman says "I hate all men they are all mean evil rapists who hate women!" it is still not nearly as harmful as you reinforcing stereotypes that lead to women getting harassed and paid less then you and not taken seriously in their fields of work and all that junk. If I hurt your man feelings I'm not even going to apologize because you probably deserve it.
-The genders are already equal.
This is getting a bit redundant, BUT! Some statistics for you: Women get paid 77 cents to a man's dollar. Man-led business projects get twice as much funding as parallel projects run by women and man-led committees are twice as large as woman-led ones. Men are almost twice as likely as women to get a promotion within a year of a development project. Men are twice as likely as equally qualified women to be sent on international business trips. That's enough of that.
-This isn't an issue of racial/religious rights.
You know that wage gap I mentioned earlier? In 2010, white women made 80.5 cents to a white man's dollar, black women made 69.6 cents to a white man's dollar, and Hispanic women made 59.8 cents to a white man's dollar. There, it's a race issue. A woman wearing a muslim head covering is "oppressed" while nuns are heralded for their commitment to their religion. It's a religious issue! It is also hugely related to LGBTQ* rights but I'mma get real pissed if I get into that, so that's a rant for another day.
So that sounds all good and feminist, as you do. But I replied with this, attempting to give my own counterargument(s) and respectfully refute certain things she ignored. Here we go:
Women are paid 77% of a man's dollar not because they are a woman, but for specific and very real economic reasons. Take the mindset of a person running a business. If you have the option to promote a woman who is newly married, planning to have kids, etc. or to promote a man who has been with the company for several years, you'll most likely promote the man. I'm not saying that a woman does not deserve equal pay or equal rights in such a situation, but women are statistically more likely to work half-time, take more time off of work, and (obviously) go on maternity leave. Also, by the view not of the government, but by the company owner, the men are generally given more dangerous jobs than women, and thus are entitled to compensation for those jobs. If the companies issued equal jobs to women and there was little to no danger of leaves, they would definitely be payed better.
Also, there has been a very distinct difference I've noticed between feminists and gender equalists. Largely, the trend has been that those who dub themselves "feminist" are really just misandrist, illogical, ill-willed arses who support their claims by screaming and using outdated statistics. So-called feminists that I have met thus far have not been the equality-supporting people they claim to be, but rather just as much in the way of promoting gender oppression as their viewed adversaries.
I think that you're right on certain things. Namely, the gender "boxes" as you called them. Everyone assumes that when rape is reported, it is by a man, or when abuse is reported, it is by a man's hand. However, I think the fact that mascu-domestic abuse occurs just as often as femme-domestic abuse does, and it would be unwise to think otherwise.
I won't deny that there have been some very nasty male-rights activists out there, but you can't say that women's rights organisations haven't done their fair share of dirty work, too. However, it must be reiterated that these more heinous acts have been performed only by the extremist and polarised side of either viewpoint.
I will agree, though; the genders are far from equal. If they were truly as equal as people think, men and women alike would be made to sign up for the draft, as men are forced to do when they turn eighteen. There wouldn't be scathing gender-splitting in the army or other places. If the genders were viewed as truly equal, then we would all have unisex bathrooms. The point I'm trying to make is that if gender equality ever did truly exist in its most pure of forms, the scathing misogyny and stereotyping wouldn't end. There's no point in trying to boost up a lost cause.
I'm not saying that people in general shouldn't have equal pay and equal balance of value in general. But I AM saying that it would be foolish and chaotic to wish for full gender equality. I want people to be equal, but I also want people to be reasonable and not jump the gun and shove words into other peoples' mouths. Kay?
Basically, this is it: The genders are in no way equal, and compensation needs to be made immediately. However, there are certain things that aren't broken and thus should be left alone.
Also, there has been a very distinct difference I've noticed between feminists and gender equalists. Largely, the trend has been that those who dub themselves "feminist" are really just misandrist, illogical, ill-willed arses who support their claims by screaming and using outdated statistics. So-called feminists that I have met thus far have not been the equality-supporting people they claim to be, but rather just as much in the way of promoting gender oppression as their viewed adversaries.
I think that you're right on certain things. Namely, the gender "boxes" as you called them. Everyone assumes that when rape is reported, it is by a man, or when abuse is reported, it is by a man's hand. However, I think the fact that mascu-domestic abuse occurs just as often as femme-domestic abuse does, and it would be unwise to think otherwise.
I won't deny that there have been some very nasty male-rights activists out there, but you can't say that women's rights organisations haven't done their fair share of dirty work, too. However, it must be reiterated that these more heinous acts have been performed only by the extremist and polarised side of either viewpoint.
I will agree, though; the genders are far from equal. If they were truly as equal as people think, men and women alike would be made to sign up for the draft, as men are forced to do when they turn eighteen. There wouldn't be scathing gender-splitting in the army or other places. If the genders were viewed as truly equal, then we would all have unisex bathrooms. The point I'm trying to make is that if gender equality ever did truly exist in its most pure of forms, the scathing misogyny and stereotyping wouldn't end. There's no point in trying to boost up a lost cause.
I'm not saying that people in general shouldn't have equal pay and equal balance of value in general. But I AM saying that it would be foolish and chaotic to wish for full gender equality. I want people to be equal, but I also want people to be reasonable and not jump the gun and shove words into other peoples' mouths. Kay?
Basically, this is it: The genders are in no way equal, and compensation needs to be made immediately. However, there are certain things that aren't broken and thus should be left alone.
Me, I debate on principle, all the time, no matter what. And when I give a reasonable set of facts, and they respond with what they did, I'm not all too happy. This is what a person replied with:
As soon as someone uses the term "misandry" everything they have and/or will say is null and void.
Keep being a voice, FRIEND'S NAME, the feminist movement needs more women like you who are strong, brilliant and pretty kick-arse.
Keep being a voice, FRIEND'S NAME, the feminist movement needs more women like you who are strong, brilliant and pretty kick-arse.
For those of you who couldn't gather it, misandry is the rough opposite to misogyny. Misogyny is hatred towards women, misandry is hatred towards men.
So you can see why I'm angry. People such as feminists, who claim to want gender equality, should not repel all opposing views simply because it's not what they want to hear. Denying me the right to the term "misandry" is precisely the sort of bullcrap that feminists want to end; which is to say, gender inequality. Frankly, it was a waste of my time and extensive brainpower to attempt to debate with a so-called feminist. Here's the reality, little kids, "feminism" isn't akin to "gender equality" nowadays. To be a feminist is apparently to be a man-hating, irrational, irrelevant arse. So if you want gender equality and you ARE willing to hear opposing views and debate civilly, points to you, you're actually a person. If you're a narrow-minded "gender equalist," you can leave now.
So...that's really all I have to say on the matter. Be angry about it. Bye.
~ Jordan
